Friday Interview: The Declining Value of a High School Diploma | Eastern North Carolina Now

    Publisher's note: The author of this post is the CJ Staff, who is a contributor to the Carolina Journal, John Hood Publisher.

JLF education expert questions factors leading to higher graduation rates

    RALEIGH     North Carolina's four-year high school graduation rate has improved to 78 percent, but that achievement has raised some questions. Among them: Why do so many students who enroll in North Carolina community colleges right after graduation from high school require remedial instruction in basic courses? Terry Stoops, director of research and education studies for the John Locke Foundation, discussed the issue with Donna Martinez for Carolina Journal Radio. (Click here to find a station near you or to learn about the weekly CJ Radio podcast.)

    Martinez: [A] 78 percent four-year graduation rate sounds really, really good. But you are making the case in your analysis that we should be looking behind those numbers, not just at that number. Tell us about that.

    Stoops: We've heard a lot about the increasing graduation rate. And it's been touted as a success and as a signal that we are being successful in our public schools because our graduation rate continues to increase. Well, first, we don't have a very good sense of why it's increasing. But second of all, it really begs the question: It is increasing, but what kind of graduates are we getting? What is the quality of these graduates? Are they prepared for the work force, for post-secondary education, or whatever they encounter after high school? And I'm finding increasingly that, no, they are not prepared.

    Martinez: How do you know that?

    Stoops: It's the increasing remediation rate at our community colleges. I focus on community colleges because they take in a huge chunk of our graduates -- of our high school graduates. And these are individuals that are mostly in the middle as far as achievement goes. We have our best students going to our universities, and we have many of our lowest-performing students going to the military or going into the work force. So this is a good cross-section of individuals going to the community colleges. And what I have found is that the remediation rate -- and this is remedial courses in English, reading, and math -- is growing in concert with the graduation rate. So, in other words, our graduation rate is increasing, [and] so is the percentage of students who require remediation.

    Martinez: What is it? What subjects do they not understand to the level that they can do community college-level work?

    Stoops: We're looking at very basic math skills, at English and writing skills, and reading and reading comprehension skills. So we're not talking about advanced calculus. We're talking about basic math -- algebra, geometry mainly. We're looking at reading comprehension, just on a high school reading level. We're looking at writing skills, complete sentences, being able to formulate complete thoughts in writing.

    We are not looking at assessments of students in advanced skills, in advanced courses. We're looking at the things that we should expect every high school student to know when they graduate. So what the community colleges are finding [is] that they have to increase the amount of money that they set aside to teach kids these remedial skills that they should have learned in high school.

    Martinez: Are community college officials screaming about this? You would think they would be.

    Stoops: Well, they are. They're very concerned about it. Now, they wouldn't be concerned about it if all of this remediation was being dedicated to those individuals who are going back to school, those who are returning for job training, or returning adults that look to pick up a degree or skills. They have accepted that is a natural part of the community college system.

    But these are kids that are going to the community colleges right after high school. And when you have two-thirds of them -- 65 percent -- requiring remediation, and millions of dollars being spent just to prepare them to go to community college, that sets them back in their studies, and it consumes a lot of resources in the community college system that could be used elsewhere.

    Martinez: What about the K-12 system? Are the folks running public education in North Carolina aware of this? And are they concerned?

    Stoops: They are aware of it, and they do acknowledge it, but it's not clear that they're very concerned about it. In fact, one of the things that I've heard from one of our education leaders is that this is essentially the community colleges' fault -- that they should stop admitting students that aren't prepared for community college work. Well, this is kind of insulting because it is the job of the K-12 system to make sure that every child is prepared for whatever type of post-secondary education or job that they want to engage in. So the blame has been shifted around.

    But there, so far, has been no one who's sat both of them down -- education officials from the K-12 system and the community college system -- and said, "OK, let's figure out what's going on, and let's come up with a solution because there is obviously a problem."

    Martinez: Terry, both the new governor, Pat McCrory, and the new lieutenant governor, Dan Forest, talked about community colleges and this issue on the campaign trail. They are now in office. Is it going to rise to a high point on their priority lists?

    Stoops: I think it is. And they're going to have different approaches, and McCrory's approach is going to be to emphasize vocational skills, to make sure that kids have the requisite knowledge of English and math through some sort of career and technical training in middle school or high school. And that's not a bad approach. I don't think all the details have been ironed out about that, but I think that's the way that McCrory is thinking.

    I think as far as Dan Forest goes, it will be interesting to see how he approaches it because the lieutenant governor serves both on the State Board of Education and on the State Board of Community Colleges. So this is a person that could conceivably bridge the gap between the K-12 system and the community college system and, maybe, provide a vital function for the lieutenant governor, who usually doesn't have a whole lot to do. This might be a good thing for the lieutenant governor to get involved in.

    Martinez: Terry, what would you do in terms of policy or approach to really tackle this issue?

    Stoops: I think it would start with sitting both of them down and getting to the root of why this is happening. I think that there are a lot of ways to go. Obviously, if kids aren't being well-served in our public schools, we have to stop claiming that they're successful or that they are not broken. And that is the one thing we've heard a lot from the State Board of Education. They have been saying that our public schools are not broken, and the proof of that is in our rising graduation rates. Well, that remediation rate keeps increasing, too, and I think that's a pretty good signal that our public schools are broken. So getting a grip on reality, I think, is the first place that we should start. [Editor's note: This interview took place before new McCrory administration appointees joined the State Board of Education.]

    Martinez: Let's talk for a moment about what this means for those individual kids, teenagers, who are graduating from high school, have a diploma, and they're trying to start making their way in life. How can they possibly be expected to be successful, to be productive members of society who can support themselves and their families, if they can't do these basic things like math?

    Stoops: This really cheapens the value of the diploma. If you think about it, everyone graduates with a high school diploma, and that is supposed to signal something. And it's supposed to signal that you graduate with certain skills and knowledge. And, of course, that doesn't seem to be happening. What I worry most about is those students who are enrolling in community college that may have a clear direction on where they want to go in life, but when they get there and they find that they have to take these remedial courses, they struggle and drop out or they find that community college is taking three or four years.

    I really worry about that. And these are students that have the right idea, that want to get involved in a career and trade, but are ill-equipped to do so. So we are finding that there is a large portion of our students that are ill-equipped for work, for community college, and these are the students that we should worry about most.