Some Real Discussion on Religion | Eastern North Carolina Now

A thoughtful lady from Australia says:

    I do have faith Gene...Although I do feel differently about religion, as I was taught in the Catholic faith (say no more)... My name was Thomas as in doubting Thomas when in primary school (given to me by a nun who just couldn't answer my questions ...mind you I always got top marks in religious study because I learned to play the game and it used to get up them....maybe I am evil.... as I was also dubbed) and that has stuck with me all through adulthood ...it doesn't make me a bad person.

    Unfortunately Religion and Politics is intertwined in Australia ...Our Prime minister is catholic.... need I say more..... I have some gay friends that have been together for over 20 years and recently went to NZ to marry....I don't have a problem with it I really don't think people choose to be gay (it even exists in the animal kingdom) or transgender....Straight people seem to be doing a good job at screwing the planet up but I guess gays will be blamed for that as well.

    Our legal age for alcohol is 18.... it's a problem no matter what the legal age is ... Young kids go crazy with binge drinking and it's scary that they take no notice of the facts of what it does to the brain and other vital organs ...as parent and grandparent I can only hope that my constant reminder is not considered nagging........I say moderation in all things.

    You possess a lot of patience Gene.... And I treasure your friendship.


    Gene Answers:

    With respect to faith, ponder on this little meme I composed:

         •  The opposite of faith is not doubt

         •  The opposite of faith is Absolute Certainty . . .

    Beyond my post going in the face of the Conservatism pumped in the e-magazine, your deeper thought is telling me I have a worthy project here.

    Our mutual friend thinks more deeply than most, but can't reach the point of saying, "What I traditionally believed was less than the best and now I see it more accurately." He must hold on to his gay hate even though he knows a guy who is now a gal with transgender surgery. We could argue with him until the cows come home, but he is like a kid beside a chasm with enough strength to leap across, but not enough faith to take the chance.

    He made a bad choice in a mate. She and her mother were crazy. She took him and he is more than bitter so his blaming is not to himself for a stupid choice, it is judging others as if he were perfect. If truth be known, I bet he was thinking with his "other head" instead of the analytical one!

    I come from the opposite side of the religious fence as Baptist. The best way to define Baptists is "anything Roman Catholicism is not"---as far as organization and structure. Our basic theology is almost identical in its basic parts. The writings of Augustine on theology are the basic same as the Baptist Faith and Message Statement (you can Google it). Other conservatives would rather fight than admit we have a common faith. As I grew up Baptist we had a former Irish Priest who became Baptist and told us horror stories of how the other Priests tried to kill him for changing. He was supposed to be a liaison between Catholics and Baptists, but promoted no peace nor understanding.

    When I got to college age and studied World History and Theology/Philosophy at Emory, it was clear to me our theology was most similar, but our church organizations were vastly different. From a simple faith of the Early Church, people started to split over hairs like Paul and Peter. Peter saw Gentiles as just people in need of Christ. Paul insisted you become a Jew first and then a Christian. Rather than constantly fight, the two men went their separate ways.

    Later the split between Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholic was over the nature of the Eucharist. The Catholic leadership went through a lengthy rational argument that the elements became the literal body and blood of Christ as the Priest blessed it. You could not receive the elements unless the Priest said so and therefore, you were going to Hell if you were ex-communicant. The Greek Orthodox more mystical view said the elements were "the same as" the body and blood, but you were not a cannibal before the altar as you partook.

    The word debate was between "homoion" and "homoosion." Even the verbal difference is so slight most common sense people said, "What are those fools arguing over--I have better things to do."

    Baptists were totally against alcohol (although many made it quietly and enjoyed drunkenness). Catholics saw no problem with it --- a Priest got through his chastity vow by quelling his sexual appetites with booze! Now there are great problems with priests molesting little boys without the Church dealing with them beyond quietly covering the immorality. The new Pope is trying to deal with it and the old guards hate his guts! Deep tunnels in Europe between the Nunnery and the Parsonage or Monastery are lined with baby remains. Augustine was a womanizer and zealot, as likely was Paul, but they loved the abstinence vow of priests who could not keep it except in public.

    "Hypocrite" is the word . . . It comes from the Greek Theater where an actor could play 2 distinct parts by using 2 different masks as the lines were spoken.

    I am confident you have more of an authentic faith than our friend can imagine. Your loss of your husband was a great test and you look forward to seeing him again one day in Eternity. Faith is not a set of words, but a willingness to take that leap across the chasms of life---not having absolute information as to how it works.

    Another thoughtful response (Dr. Wayne Martin):

    Tell them 'A LIBERAL BAPTIST IS AN OXYMORON' there ain't no such animal!!!- few of those who like to put such a label on a 'Baptist' have a depth of understanding of what a liberal is....this is the height of 'profiling'....to begin with...the first assumption one makes is assumption is that my beliefs are correct and orthodox and thus 'anyone who doesn't think like he does must not believe the Bible...I can't tell you the times people have brought up questions obviously disguised to trap me as if were some liberal (they are obviously the 'cousins' of those who tried their best to catch Jesus off guard with some theology trick question) and when I responded....they would say (as if a prescribed response for such confrontations) ...'Oh, you don't believe the Bible' to which I responded...'I JUST DON'T BELIEVE YOUR INTERPRETATION!"----it never settled the matter but it did change the subject...so the heavy question in this matter related to 'liberals' is ....who made the conservative interpretation/view the standard by which all other views are interpreted?

    More often than not....those who might be called a 'liberal Baptist' are essentially not too different from a conservative Presbyterian or Episcopal ...and when compared to classic liberals...such a liberal breed rarely exists among Baptists---especially Southern Baptists---since the days of the Baptist founder in America, Roger Williams...Baptists have generally been 'conservative' and because we believe in the priesthood of believes which allows one to be led by the Holy Spirit and wherever the Holy Spirit might lead him/her (and not committed to the rigid prescribed order of the beliefs....there always were some who were called 'liberal' or whatever label was in vogue in any particular day because the Holy Spirit had not 'led them to be foot stumping and Bible thumping conservative Baptists...and about as rare as that ...Baptists have not until recently ever been call fundamentalists...(I, myself don't believe in what is popular today 'statements of faith' as found in Southern Baptist life (it has become as much a tool for discipline Baptists of a different spirit--- which, for the want of another phrase accomplishes about the same as creeds do....nor do I believe in creeds...since Baptists HAVE NEVER BELIEVED IN CREEDS ...and the problem with creeds is that they tell others what one believes...BUT CREEDS ALSO TELL WHAT ONE DOESN'T BELIEVE!!!!.) though not all Baptists are narrow minded 'Bible thumpers' who are more conservatives and fundamentalists like to call Baptists who are open minded...unafraid to entertain deep and wide questions to arrive at a fuller understanding of an issue...or they may not hold the same views of the Bible as others do...but they cherish the message of the Bible...and maybe realize that the WORD OF GOD....the Message of God ...is too big...too powerful...too profound to be totally and completely expressed in a few simply words AND FURTHERMORE if the words of Scripture could contain all of God's WORD---MESSAGE---man's mind is to limited to grasp it all!

    In religious culture...many evangelicals---and Baptists are usually included in such theological category---so many of us were taught 'you are never to ask questions...you are never to ask why 'this' might have happened or why did 'that' happened...one is not EVER to question God' For someone who is 'dying' to know but afraid to ask.... why 'God 'took' that young mother and left two precious children without a Mama" I wouldn't hesitate as a pastor to say----"God can handle ANY question you want to ask....If you are courageous enough to ask it....God is honest enough to answer it.'

    Our Christian faith has strong connections to Jewish thought (sometimes BECAUSE OF...sometimes INSPITE OF) but either way...our faith also has deep roots in the Old Testament (the Hebrew Bible). Consider that fellow Job...a godly man whom the devil said was shallow in his faith and if you tested his faith he would turn against God...God said...OK...Test Him.. During his misery, he constantly asked what he did to deserve this suffering. and when he heard no answer, he asserted that he didn't do anything to deserve his treatment....some of his friends said...'come on Job....'fess us....there's sin in your life?' and God is punishing you for your sins... a conservative thought.... Job said No, I've not sin...' and you know the rest of the story... look at the conversation Moses had with God about going to rescue his people from slavery...Isaiah (1) hears God say... 'Come now...lets us reason together...' yet we are afraid to ask questions....though we are starving for an answer.....But we tend to label one who raises such hard and heavy questions as liberals

    There is a statement going around among those who are willing to grow deep in the matters of God...'THE OPPOSITE OF FAITH IS NOT 'DOUBTS' IT IS 'CERTAINITY.' Which is to ask if you are so certain about your ANSWER and grasp of what it means to follow Jesus....there is nothing else to learn...you've arrived....you are there... A doubt is nothing more than a question about a matter...A DESIRE TO LEARN MORE ABOUT THE MATTER...I would rise to say that if you NEVER DOUBT....you are not as 'goddish' as you thought you were....people of faith want to know more about Christ, because they have unanswered questions....more about what it means to follow Him because they are out there in the worldly world where he needs help in knowing how he should live....more about what it means to trust Him because it's hard to trust when need funds for your house payment ....more about what it means to be a Child of God because he is an adult and what does it mean in these confusing times to be like God's child....no wonder Paul said...'study to show yourself approved unto God ...a workman that doesn't need to be ashamed.' Because if you were certain that you had it all the answers......what would there be to study.

    In the second place.....most of us don't know a liberal because we've got this picture in our minds of this picture of a drinking, cussing, card playing, womanizing individual who claims God loves him...we've got them pegged like that fellow who always writing a letter to the editor of the paper...those who don't attend church as regularly as we do....those who see so arrogantly as to dare to ask God questions. I know some liberals and they can ask you questions that will make you wiggle like a worm on hot concrete...they can shock you with aspects of beliefs you've never even dreamed of...BUT when one gets behind that veneer...that external appearance...you often find a person of greater understanding of the Bible than some conservatives and fundamentals would hope ever to possess....

    Lastly...one of the problems is that the wisdom and the message of the Bible.....the challenges of the Gospel ...the love of God....Godly living...ALL THESE HEAVY ISSUES OF FAITH......are of such depth that few of us can understand them...

    Furthermore...too many of us don't understand the power of words....it's like an Old Testament test how we pronounce words...Judges 12:6 in which an alleged imposter was tested by the simple question...."Say now, 'Shibboleth.'" If the person pronounced it properly...he was considered one of the Hebrews...otherwise he as judged 'fake'...too often, if one can't say 'J E S U S' like certain conservatives, he considered 'not one of us'....a liberal perhaps trying to pass as a true believer. Moreover, too many of us have no understanding of the picture words can paint. And too many of us don't understand the variety of ways to express the same message...There are many ways to express the love of God...'clipping toenails (for the aged) for Jesus might be as glorious a witness as a loving message of Christ's love for us. There are many ways to take up ones' cross and follow Christ....there are more ways to give a piece of bread to the hungry than by offering a loaf of Wonder Bread ...there are many ways to 'cloth the naked' than putting a sheet around their body....do you get the picture? we are prone to think one must give a 'drink of water' to quench another's thirst....yet one's thirst for spiritual knowledge or emotional and spiritual peace are also satisfied by something perhaps other than by a glass of water...there are many ways to show others love .....the love of God....as in Christ BUT IF WE ARE CERTAIN THAT OUR WAY OF CHRISTIAN SERVICE/GODLY SERVICE IS THE ONLY WAY TO DO IT ....We've left no room for those who do the same thing....but do it differently.....obviously they don't know as much as we...no doubt we are more dedicated than they......they must be liberal....

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Comments

( June 4th, 2015 @ 6:28 pm )
 
No one with a real faith could ever describe it in a paragraph X 2 . . . '

Wayne Martin lives in Metro Atlanta and could be a great help --- if you dare.
( June 4th, 2015 @ 6:26 pm )
 
Don't sell yourself short --- you are deeper than you think + it starts with disclosing your true identity, old sport. . .
( June 4th, 2015 @ 1:57 pm )
 
I thank my two friends for their honesty and depth of faith. Now the ball is in the court of BCN commentators to see if we can stay away from baseball and other "silly stuff" in a world where good Conservatism in hard to find and real liberated minds run scared in its face . . .



John Locke Foundation: Prudent Policy / Impeccable Research - Volume CIV Far Left of Center, Editorials, Op-Ed & Politics Governor Rick Perry is in the Race

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